A friend of mine wrote to his Alma Mater to complain about the obvious discrimination of their "women in leadership" program (after they hit him up for a donation to support it!). They replied back to say, "There's no discrimination here, all genders (!!) are welcome to participate in the program". The obtuseness and entitlement is breathtaking.
While I disagree with men(trans or not) participating in women's athletics, I actually think it may end up being a healthy thing in the long run. When one listens to the whining of Riley Gaines about how female athletes opportunities are being taken away when "biological men" compete as women by claiming to be trans, she is failing to recognize that women's athletics only exists because of the feminist desire to create a separate and unequal athletic arena for women to compete in. Women's athletics were not created by adding new resources to create opportunities for women. They were created by depriving many male athletes of opportunities to create sheltered programs open only to women because women could not compete on a level playing field. The same is happening with all these programs to create opportunities for women in science etc. while no such programs exist to create opportunities for men in women dominated fields. So...for women athletes to actually have to compete on a level playing field without gender based protections sends an important lesson. If you want equality, you have to actually be able to perform on the merits and not expect a sheltered workplace based on sex.
I agree female athletics were never something most women would have requested.
All your points about the creation of women's sports are totally valid. Society could certainly live without women's sports. The WNBA doesn't even sell enough tickets to pay for lighting the stadium during the game.
I agree even more about the push for women in STEM, since the fruits of STEM work have serious implications for the health and safety of society.
But I have to say that I don't think Riley can be characterized as a whiner. She and her female team mates entered competitive swimming under one set of rules, then had this change inflicted on them - not just allowing men to compete, but to use the locker rooms (where Will/Lia's physical pleasure was visibly apparent). The school and the swimming organizations pushed the girl swimmers into indoctrination and even psychological counseling to enforce conformity, and threatened them with expulsion from the team. Riley had some very interesting things to say about how Will/Lia demonstrates male instinctual behavior, vs. the girls' female instinctual behavior as the changed was forced into the girls' team. (This video includes the key clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JF4p05zj314)
And I'd point out that the men who are infiltrating women's sports are not doing it out of any ethical concerns about the negative effects of feminism. These are men who get sexual pleasure from wearing their fetish gear in public(wearing women's clothes - but not just any women's clothes - porn actress style - is a key part of the fetish autogynephilia). The men entering women's competitions enjoy beating women, not just in competition, but also in terms of doing physical harm to their female opponents. Look into Fallon Fox fracturing a woman's skull, or Riley Dennis playing soccer in Australia. Sometimes the woman competitor is not even informed the opponent isn't female.
To get insight into the motives and attitudes of MtFs, I suggest you check out the website peak trans, which has a page that collects writings MTF trans people post about women:
Another thing to check out is the Mr. Menno You Tube video that's a collection of videos posted by MtF individuals, '"In the Ladies" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwUe7-4-_TY
i'll leave you with this thought. Trans infiltration of women's spaces is, as far as I'm concerned, disproof of every claim feminism has ever made about straight men supposedly hating and oppressing women. First, because all the amenities MtFs enter were created BY men for women's comfort and enjoyment, and wouldn't have been created by men who hate and want to hurt women. Second, because MtFs do, by their own internet postings and videos, as well as behavior in sports, and attacking women's speaking events, show what hatred of and desire to harm women actually looks like.
I actually agree with you on nearly all these points but stand by my opinion that Gaines is whining without considering the whole situation in historical context. Gaines is upset that men under the guise of being trans invaded a female space against their will and then unfairly took opportunities and awards from them. These are 2 separate claims which need to be assessed as such. First...did trans men invade female spaces against the will of women? Absolutely. On this point Gaines and her supporters have a fairly strong argument but hardly an air tight one. The reality is that WOMEN frequently invade male spaces under the guise of "equal opportunity" without the consent or consideration of men. Examples include women demanding the right to play on men's sports teams if a women's teams is not available. This is just as bad as a man doing the same to a woman's team. Women have demanded the "right" to join teams even such as wrestling despite the clear discomfort this creates for the male wrestlers. Indeed, not only are the concerns of the men ignored to convenience the women, women wrestlers have actually had the audacity to cry sexual harassment and assault from such wrestling competitions when the man performs perfectly valid moves relevant to the sport. In terms of the locker rooms...go to any college bar and you will see women invading the men's rest room constantly because they are unwilling to wait in the line for the women's room. When the men object to this invasion, usually with derogatory language and leers, the women have the audacity to complain to bar staff that the men harassed them! The worst thing that happens to them is the bar may ask them to leave. Bars literally have to have bouncers stationed to try to keep women out of the men's restroom! If a man entered the women's restroom he would be violently assaulted by the women and bar staff before being arrested by police. So...if women are going to demand women's only spaces, they must then show the same respect for men's only spaces. That means if a woman wants to play football or wrestle but there is no women's team, she needs to be told no and have Title IX support that decision. You will note that Riley Gaines is quick to seek legislation to ban trans men and men from participating on women's sports teams...but has not called for a similar ban on trans women and women from participating on men's teams. Rules for thee but not for me is typical of feminists.
The second point Gaines makes is that it is unfair when a trans man or man competes against a woman and wins. Why? As a swimmer, both male and female athletes compete against the same medium for the same distance against the clock. If the "Lia" Thomas is faster than she is, then that is how the cookie crumbles. That is FAIR competition. It is no different than a short man having to compete against a tall man in basketball. The nature of the game favors the person of greater physical stature over the shorter one. In wrestling they try to keep the competition reasonable by having narrow weight classes but height body type still matter. Gaines is unhappy because her great talent as a female swimmer still lands here between 450 and 500 nationally against male competitors. Similarly...most WNBA teams with their "professional" athletes would struggle to compete with a decent high school men's team. Women only excel when in a protected league that removes all the male competitors. Unlike the men's teams who had their sports cancelled to create "opportunities" for women by creating women's teams, the men did not get to compete and lose in a fair fight. They had their sports cancelled because of their sex to make room for female athletes who could not make a coed team against them. Gaines needs to be honest about this.
As for the desire of some of these trans men to compete and harm women...I am sure that is indeed the case in some cases. The same could be said for most statements and actions taken by feminist women whenever men are involved when they seek "equal" opportunity. Should we not call this out as well?
Hi Sadredin, I agree with your points about the invasive nature of feminism, and the one-sided way the feminists & their sympathizers always force "inclusion" in one direction only. I think it's even worse than that, in that feminists are very selective in the places they wish to install women - boardrooms, yes, maintenance work? No.
I think the most serious damage feminists have done to our society has been changes like no-fault divorce, and family court rules that push fathers away from their kids, while forcing the fathers to fund not only the children's but the ex wives' lifestyles. I think the changes to divorce and family law are far far more serious than girls entering boys' sports. First because the girls who wish to do so are very few in number. More serious is that Title IX defunded a lot of high school and college boys's sports, to free up funds to make available sports opportunities for girls, even though, not infrequently, there aren't enough girls at a school interested in sports that enough join to form a team.
I've actually had 2 experiences when a male (each probably around age 20) entered a women's restroom. Both happened in the same public restroom in Portland, Oregon, in the early 2000s. The women did not violently attack either of these guys, didn't even insult them or say anything. In each instance, the women noticed the guy, said and did nothing to him, and rapidly left the facility. In one instance, I was in a stall when the guy entered, and came out to discover a man at the sink changing into women's clothes. The second time, the guy was leaving just as I arrived. Police or security staff, at least where I live, would be unlikely to assault such men, even in the course of forcing the men to leave the establishment, or arresting them.
There are several differences between the situation when girls or women try to get into boys or men's sports, and autogynephiles who go into women's sports. Generally, in the case of school sports, the girls wash out quickly. There were two girls accepted onto US college football teams in the past few years. Each played exactly one play in one game. Neither demanded access to the men's locker rooms, but used the women's, alone. My assessment was that these girls were in it for the publicity.
MtFs who've entered women's sports demand access to the women's locker rooms. MtFs have all the physical advantages males have, vs. women, and in just a few short years, caused some serious injuries, and as I recall, caused 2 skull fractures. The MtFs also make a big point of talking nasty about their female competitors, not in-game smack talk, but in interviews expressing glee about beating women and girls. MtFs as a group, have a high ratio of overt hostility towards women and girls and the capacity to inflict injury in the course of the competition in a way the females can't do to them.
I don't discount the damage done to high school and college sports by adults who changed laws to the disadvantage of the half the population who enjoy and seek to play sports, the boys. I think it's a grave injustice to the boys as well as loss of opportunities to learn team cooperation and maximize their physical fitness.
The demolition inflicted on boys' sports by previous generations of feminists (often males - as not all feminists are women, and not all women are feminists) is a grave injustice on many levels.
However, is not the fault of current girls who choose to participate where a girls' swim team is available. If we should not punish men and boys for the alleged sins of men and boys of the past (most of which I believe to have been manufactured for political reasons) then neither should we punish girls who enter existing female teams or competitions, and are not invading boys' spaces.
I have to disagree with your assessment of Riley Gaines, and the situation she finds herself in. She wasn't trying to push into a men's swimming team, a man pretending he believes himself to be a woman pushed himself into the women's team - and the school, and swimming association treated the girl swimmers' complaints as indications that the girls needed mental health treatment as well as indoctrination in inclusiveness. As far as I know, neither of these procedures have been inflicted on on any sports team before, male or female.
I hope you will take the time to watch the video with the clip from her interview on Joe Rogan. Her insights about the differences between how the supposedly transitioned Will/Lia and the girl swimmers behave actually align with the reality that men and women approach problems and goals in very stereotypical ways.
The combination of "self identification" and giving female soldiers extra pay and pension rights as well as nicer quarters has resulted in men identifying as women to boost their pay and conditions! You may recall the men who "gatecrashed" a Florida "women's tech industry recruitment fair" by all claiming to be women or non binary.
Thank you. Yes, I remember the men gate-crashing the (obviously illegal) women's tech industry recruitment fair. There is a MGTOW known as Turd Flinging Monkey, who advises men to identify as masculine-presenting lesbians when they apply for jobs.
A friend of mine wrote to his Alma Mater to complain about the obvious discrimination of their "women in leadership" program (after they hit him up for a donation to support it!). They replied back to say, "There's no discrimination here, all genders (!!) are welcome to participate in the program". The obtuseness and entitlement is breathtaking.
I hope the men who pretend to be women make a mockery of the program.
While I disagree with men(trans or not) participating in women's athletics, I actually think it may end up being a healthy thing in the long run. When one listens to the whining of Riley Gaines about how female athletes opportunities are being taken away when "biological men" compete as women by claiming to be trans, she is failing to recognize that women's athletics only exists because of the feminist desire to create a separate and unequal athletic arena for women to compete in. Women's athletics were not created by adding new resources to create opportunities for women. They were created by depriving many male athletes of opportunities to create sheltered programs open only to women because women could not compete on a level playing field. The same is happening with all these programs to create opportunities for women in science etc. while no such programs exist to create opportunities for men in women dominated fields. So...for women athletes to actually have to compete on a level playing field without gender based protections sends an important lesson. If you want equality, you have to actually be able to perform on the merits and not expect a sheltered workplace based on sex.
I agree female athletics were never something most women would have requested.
All your points about the creation of women's sports are totally valid. Society could certainly live without women's sports. The WNBA doesn't even sell enough tickets to pay for lighting the stadium during the game.
I agree even more about the push for women in STEM, since the fruits of STEM work have serious implications for the health and safety of society.
But I have to say that I don't think Riley can be characterized as a whiner. She and her female team mates entered competitive swimming under one set of rules, then had this change inflicted on them - not just allowing men to compete, but to use the locker rooms (where Will/Lia's physical pleasure was visibly apparent). The school and the swimming organizations pushed the girl swimmers into indoctrination and even psychological counseling to enforce conformity, and threatened them with expulsion from the team. Riley had some very interesting things to say about how Will/Lia demonstrates male instinctual behavior, vs. the girls' female instinctual behavior as the changed was forced into the girls' team. (This video includes the key clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JF4p05zj314)
And I'd point out that the men who are infiltrating women's sports are not doing it out of any ethical concerns about the negative effects of feminism. These are men who get sexual pleasure from wearing their fetish gear in public(wearing women's clothes - but not just any women's clothes - porn actress style - is a key part of the fetish autogynephilia). The men entering women's competitions enjoy beating women, not just in competition, but also in terms of doing physical harm to their female opponents. Look into Fallon Fox fracturing a woman's skull, or Riley Dennis playing soccer in Australia. Sometimes the woman competitor is not even informed the opponent isn't female.
To get insight into the motives and attitudes of MtFs, I suggest you check out the website peak trans, which has a page that collects writings MTF trans people post about women:
https://www.peaktrans.org/terf-is-a-slur/
Another thing to check out is the Mr. Menno You Tube video that's a collection of videos posted by MtF individuals, '"In the Ladies" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwUe7-4-_TY
i'll leave you with this thought. Trans infiltration of women's spaces is, as far as I'm concerned, disproof of every claim feminism has ever made about straight men supposedly hating and oppressing women. First, because all the amenities MtFs enter were created BY men for women's comfort and enjoyment, and wouldn't have been created by men who hate and want to hurt women. Second, because MtFs do, by their own internet postings and videos, as well as behavior in sports, and attacking women's speaking events, show what hatred of and desire to harm women actually looks like.
Hi Trish,
I actually agree with you on nearly all these points but stand by my opinion that Gaines is whining without considering the whole situation in historical context. Gaines is upset that men under the guise of being trans invaded a female space against their will and then unfairly took opportunities and awards from them. These are 2 separate claims which need to be assessed as such. First...did trans men invade female spaces against the will of women? Absolutely. On this point Gaines and her supporters have a fairly strong argument but hardly an air tight one. The reality is that WOMEN frequently invade male spaces under the guise of "equal opportunity" without the consent or consideration of men. Examples include women demanding the right to play on men's sports teams if a women's teams is not available. This is just as bad as a man doing the same to a woman's team. Women have demanded the "right" to join teams even such as wrestling despite the clear discomfort this creates for the male wrestlers. Indeed, not only are the concerns of the men ignored to convenience the women, women wrestlers have actually had the audacity to cry sexual harassment and assault from such wrestling competitions when the man performs perfectly valid moves relevant to the sport. In terms of the locker rooms...go to any college bar and you will see women invading the men's rest room constantly because they are unwilling to wait in the line for the women's room. When the men object to this invasion, usually with derogatory language and leers, the women have the audacity to complain to bar staff that the men harassed them! The worst thing that happens to them is the bar may ask them to leave. Bars literally have to have bouncers stationed to try to keep women out of the men's restroom! If a man entered the women's restroom he would be violently assaulted by the women and bar staff before being arrested by police. So...if women are going to demand women's only spaces, they must then show the same respect for men's only spaces. That means if a woman wants to play football or wrestle but there is no women's team, she needs to be told no and have Title IX support that decision. You will note that Riley Gaines is quick to seek legislation to ban trans men and men from participating on women's sports teams...but has not called for a similar ban on trans women and women from participating on men's teams. Rules for thee but not for me is typical of feminists.
The second point Gaines makes is that it is unfair when a trans man or man competes against a woman and wins. Why? As a swimmer, both male and female athletes compete against the same medium for the same distance against the clock. If the "Lia" Thomas is faster than she is, then that is how the cookie crumbles. That is FAIR competition. It is no different than a short man having to compete against a tall man in basketball. The nature of the game favors the person of greater physical stature over the shorter one. In wrestling they try to keep the competition reasonable by having narrow weight classes but height body type still matter. Gaines is unhappy because her great talent as a female swimmer still lands here between 450 and 500 nationally against male competitors. Similarly...most WNBA teams with their "professional" athletes would struggle to compete with a decent high school men's team. Women only excel when in a protected league that removes all the male competitors. Unlike the men's teams who had their sports cancelled to create "opportunities" for women by creating women's teams, the men did not get to compete and lose in a fair fight. They had their sports cancelled because of their sex to make room for female athletes who could not make a coed team against them. Gaines needs to be honest about this.
As for the desire of some of these trans men to compete and harm women...I am sure that is indeed the case in some cases. The same could be said for most statements and actions taken by feminist women whenever men are involved when they seek "equal" opportunity. Should we not call this out as well?
Hope this makes sense.
Hi Sadredin, I agree with your points about the invasive nature of feminism, and the one-sided way the feminists & their sympathizers always force "inclusion" in one direction only. I think it's even worse than that, in that feminists are very selective in the places they wish to install women - boardrooms, yes, maintenance work? No.
I think the most serious damage feminists have done to our society has been changes like no-fault divorce, and family court rules that push fathers away from their kids, while forcing the fathers to fund not only the children's but the ex wives' lifestyles. I think the changes to divorce and family law are far far more serious than girls entering boys' sports. First because the girls who wish to do so are very few in number. More serious is that Title IX defunded a lot of high school and college boys's sports, to free up funds to make available sports opportunities for girls, even though, not infrequently, there aren't enough girls at a school interested in sports that enough join to form a team.
I've actually had 2 experiences when a male (each probably around age 20) entered a women's restroom. Both happened in the same public restroom in Portland, Oregon, in the early 2000s. The women did not violently attack either of these guys, didn't even insult them or say anything. In each instance, the women noticed the guy, said and did nothing to him, and rapidly left the facility. In one instance, I was in a stall when the guy entered, and came out to discover a man at the sink changing into women's clothes. The second time, the guy was leaving just as I arrived. Police or security staff, at least where I live, would be unlikely to assault such men, even in the course of forcing the men to leave the establishment, or arresting them.
There are several differences between the situation when girls or women try to get into boys or men's sports, and autogynephiles who go into women's sports. Generally, in the case of school sports, the girls wash out quickly. There were two girls accepted onto US college football teams in the past few years. Each played exactly one play in one game. Neither demanded access to the men's locker rooms, but used the women's, alone. My assessment was that these girls were in it for the publicity.
MtFs who've entered women's sports demand access to the women's locker rooms. MtFs have all the physical advantages males have, vs. women, and in just a few short years, caused some serious injuries, and as I recall, caused 2 skull fractures. The MtFs also make a big point of talking nasty about their female competitors, not in-game smack talk, but in interviews expressing glee about beating women and girls. MtFs as a group, have a high ratio of overt hostility towards women and girls and the capacity to inflict injury in the course of the competition in a way the females can't do to them.
I don't discount the damage done to high school and college sports by adults who changed laws to the disadvantage of the half the population who enjoy and seek to play sports, the boys. I think it's a grave injustice to the boys as well as loss of opportunities to learn team cooperation and maximize their physical fitness.
The demolition inflicted on boys' sports by previous generations of feminists (often males - as not all feminists are women, and not all women are feminists) is a grave injustice on many levels.
However, is not the fault of current girls who choose to participate where a girls' swim team is available. If we should not punish men and boys for the alleged sins of men and boys of the past (most of which I believe to have been manufactured for political reasons) then neither should we punish girls who enter existing female teams or competitions, and are not invading boys' spaces.
I have to disagree with your assessment of Riley Gaines, and the situation she finds herself in. She wasn't trying to push into a men's swimming team, a man pretending he believes himself to be a woman pushed himself into the women's team - and the school, and swimming association treated the girl swimmers' complaints as indications that the girls needed mental health treatment as well as indoctrination in inclusiveness. As far as I know, neither of these procedures have been inflicted on on any sports team before, male or female.
I hope you will take the time to watch the video with the clip from her interview on Joe Rogan. Her insights about the differences between how the supposedly transitioned Will/Lia and the girl swimmers behave actually align with the reality that men and women approach problems and goals in very stereotypical ways.
The expectations will continue until the door is slammed in the face of them.
Thank you. That would truly be awesome!
Yes I'm rather inspired by this https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13161825/Male-Spanish-soldiers-self-identifying-women-better-army-digs.html#comments
The combination of "self identification" and giving female soldiers extra pay and pension rights as well as nicer quarters has resulted in men identifying as women to boost their pay and conditions! You may recall the men who "gatecrashed" a Florida "women's tech industry recruitment fair" by all claiming to be women or non binary.
More of this to expose the double standards.
Thank you. Yes, I remember the men gate-crashing the (obviously illegal) women's tech industry recruitment fair. There is a MGTOW known as Turd Flinging Monkey, who advises men to identify as masculine-presenting lesbians when they apply for jobs.