Good dialogue. I await the remainder of the conversation. I hope that it will include active steps men can take to remedy the legal injustices men face in all the areas we all know too well. I am writing to Biden regarding his executive order this month to increase women’s health research when it is clear to anyone who will see it that medical care is failing men in the US far more than women. As a prostate cancer survivor so far, I am acutely aware that the US government spends 2.4 times more on breast cancer research than prostate cancer research when the annual mortality rates are similar. Etc. Etc. Etc…
Mar 25·edited Mar 25Liked by Janice Fiamengo, David Shackleton
Although I agree that men shouldn't wallow in self-pity, an important consideration in this debate is that so much of men's human rights have been eroded because victimised men and their support groups do not resort to litigation. As victimised women and their support groups do, they accumulate on already overinflated funds, visibility and political power to further erode men's human rights. Furthermore, in a conflict between a man and a woman, public and private authorities have all incentive to take measures against the man because there are no repercussions if you victimise a man, even if he really is the victim, but hell to pay if a woman has to face repercussions, even if she is the perpetrator.
Formidable, crystal clear, packed with wisdom and good advice. I am going to print it out and absorb it and reduce it to half a dozen things I need to remember as I write and think about masculinity. Very grateful that I can read this rather than watch and listen to it, and thank you both for a marvelous exchange.
All I needed to hear after 25 years in the men’s rights field came from the GOAT himself, Paul Elam, AVFM who said “there are no victims, only volunteers” and so, I left females totally behind. Let them have their insanity ALONE!!
This is a very excellent conversation. Like David Shackleton, I went through a similar situation with a scientific professional society and got fired and professionally cancelled for daring to stand up for the integrity of our profession of the organization and our profession against misconduct by a woman who was being deified by Team Femi-Nazi. The response to my cancellation was a refusal by even colleagues who agree with my position and organizations that claim to speak up for free speech, academic freedom and due process rights (it was a poster presentation in a session on ethics that called out the misconduct) were unwilling to stand up in THIS case. Like David, I had to learn to grieve in private and accept that the leading guiding principle that seems to motivate women is hate.
So how should you respond? First, resist the temptation to become a victim as suggested here...but ALSO resist the temptation to give up on yourself and be cowed into silence. Yes, you will need to be strategic and pick your battles, but do NOT be cowed into silence. Feminism has made a significant fraction of women into classic schoolyard bullies. They have plenty of hangers-on, both women and men, who will glad aid and abet the bully because of their own hateful inclinations and the allure of power of the bullies. But...bullies remain bullies and cannot win their "argument" on the merits. Sadly, like the battle against anti-semitism, this will be a long and likely never fully ending fight.
There is another strategy here, however, which I must advocate others consider. As with toxic individuals, you need to defend yourself against them by keeping them out of our your life where possible. Men not getting married or even refusing to date women is a part of this strategy. It must, however, be applied more broadly. I am talking about a full disengagement, not just from toxic women and their supporters, but from women in general. That means NOT seeking women coworkers/employees, colleagues and friends. No, you should not discriminate against anyone...but no person is under any obligation to advocate for or interact with members of a group who are hostile to them. Women constantly use this argument against men to discriminate. It is time the favor was returned. This includes refusing to assist women in situations where they are being "abused" when the underlying situation including the root causes and circumstances of the situation etc. are unknown. Will innocent women get hurt in the process? Of course...but so long as the vast majority of women actively participate in or passively go along with feminism, there is no alternative.
Sadly, in embracing feminism as women have, they have demonstrated many of the very "failings" that Victorian society stereotypically ascribed to women. If gender roles had been reversed, women would never have supported the 19th amendment to extend the right to vote to men. Indeed, the actions of feminists seem designed to demonstrate that women neither desire nor are capable of living as equals in society. I personally don't believe that women are inherently incapable of being equal to men...but as a scientist I have to evaluate the evidence for what it is. Thus far...women as a group have not acquitted themselves well....certainly not with the nobility that men generally have.
I believe it is important to distinguish between feminist leaders versus feminists in general. I recently attended the UN Commission on the Status of Women conference in NYC. We went to two of the side events, stood at the entrance, and passed out flyers about the 12 areas of male disadvantage.
Virtually every feminist accepted our flyer, and several commented, “we support you.” Yes, really!
But then the event organizers came outside and tried to convince us to leave, harassed us, and even summoned the police. (We were standing on the sidewalk, on public property).
We informed the police officers that we had obtained permission from the local police precinct, so the police allowed us to continue to distribute our flyers.
Bottom line: the real problem lies with the feminist leadership, not with rank and file feminists.
A psychoanalyst would probably refer to "projection." I can't argue with that, but I'd prefer to explain this phenomenon in terms of the cultural mechanisms that encourage it. Ideologies rely heavily on the doctrine that ends can justify means. If fostering hatred--mobilizing resentment by teaching contempt--leads to revolution, then so be it. Besides, as any advocate of anti-Westernism (a.k.a. wokism ) would explain, the moral principles of Western civilization are themselves evidence of its inherent but carefully disguised evil.
This is a wonderful conversation about a critical issue. Feminism, as a movement, is aimed at emasculating men, and preventing us from responding in any other way than complete submission to women, and the abandonment of every strength men have developed.
It really is hard to accept the feminist claim that their movement is for equality when consistently every male virtue is condemned as “toxic” in order to force men into submission, and suppress our energy, and creativity, deny their value, and require us to roll over and play dead as misandrist cows force us to bow down or be condemned as agents of a patriarchy that doesn’t exist.
Brilliant dialogue. Mature and sobering. Thank you!
Good dialogue. I await the remainder of the conversation. I hope that it will include active steps men can take to remedy the legal injustices men face in all the areas we all know too well. I am writing to Biden regarding his executive order this month to increase women’s health research when it is clear to anyone who will see it that medical care is failing men in the US far more than women. As a prostate cancer survivor so far, I am acutely aware that the US government spends 2.4 times more on breast cancer research than prostate cancer research when the annual mortality rates are similar. Etc. Etc. Etc…
Although I agree that men shouldn't wallow in self-pity, an important consideration in this debate is that so much of men's human rights have been eroded because victimised men and their support groups do not resort to litigation. As victimised women and their support groups do, they accumulate on already overinflated funds, visibility and political power to further erode men's human rights. Furthermore, in a conflict between a man and a woman, public and private authorities have all incentive to take measures against the man because there are no repercussions if you victimise a man, even if he really is the victim, but hell to pay if a woman has to face repercussions, even if she is the perpetrator.
Formidable, crystal clear, packed with wisdom and good advice. I am going to print it out and absorb it and reduce it to half a dozen things I need to remember as I write and think about masculinity. Very grateful that I can read this rather than watch and listen to it, and thank you both for a marvelous exchange.
All I needed to hear after 25 years in the men’s rights field came from the GOAT himself, Paul Elam, AVFM who said “there are no victims, only volunteers” and so, I left females totally behind. Let them have their insanity ALONE!!
This is a very excellent conversation. Like David Shackleton, I went through a similar situation with a scientific professional society and got fired and professionally cancelled for daring to stand up for the integrity of our profession of the organization and our profession against misconduct by a woman who was being deified by Team Femi-Nazi. The response to my cancellation was a refusal by even colleagues who agree with my position and organizations that claim to speak up for free speech, academic freedom and due process rights (it was a poster presentation in a session on ethics that called out the misconduct) were unwilling to stand up in THIS case. Like David, I had to learn to grieve in private and accept that the leading guiding principle that seems to motivate women is hate.
So how should you respond? First, resist the temptation to become a victim as suggested here...but ALSO resist the temptation to give up on yourself and be cowed into silence. Yes, you will need to be strategic and pick your battles, but do NOT be cowed into silence. Feminism has made a significant fraction of women into classic schoolyard bullies. They have plenty of hangers-on, both women and men, who will glad aid and abet the bully because of their own hateful inclinations and the allure of power of the bullies. But...bullies remain bullies and cannot win their "argument" on the merits. Sadly, like the battle against anti-semitism, this will be a long and likely never fully ending fight.
There is another strategy here, however, which I must advocate others consider. As with toxic individuals, you need to defend yourself against them by keeping them out of our your life where possible. Men not getting married or even refusing to date women is a part of this strategy. It must, however, be applied more broadly. I am talking about a full disengagement, not just from toxic women and their supporters, but from women in general. That means NOT seeking women coworkers/employees, colleagues and friends. No, you should not discriminate against anyone...but no person is under any obligation to advocate for or interact with members of a group who are hostile to them. Women constantly use this argument against men to discriminate. It is time the favor was returned. This includes refusing to assist women in situations where they are being "abused" when the underlying situation including the root causes and circumstances of the situation etc. are unknown. Will innocent women get hurt in the process? Of course...but so long as the vast majority of women actively participate in or passively go along with feminism, there is no alternative.
Sadly, in embracing feminism as women have, they have demonstrated many of the very "failings" that Victorian society stereotypically ascribed to women. If gender roles had been reversed, women would never have supported the 19th amendment to extend the right to vote to men. Indeed, the actions of feminists seem designed to demonstrate that women neither desire nor are capable of living as equals in society. I personally don't believe that women are inherently incapable of being equal to men...but as a scientist I have to evaluate the evidence for what it is. Thus far...women as a group have not acquitted themselves well....certainly not with the nobility that men generally have.
I believe it is important to distinguish between feminist leaders versus feminists in general. I recently attended the UN Commission on the Status of Women conference in NYC. We went to two of the side events, stood at the entrance, and passed out flyers about the 12 areas of male disadvantage.
Virtually every feminist accepted our flyer, and several commented, “we support you.” Yes, really!
But then the event organizers came outside and tried to convince us to leave, harassed us, and even summoned the police. (We were standing on the sidewalk, on public property).
We informed the police officers that we had obtained permission from the local police precinct, so the police allowed us to continue to distribute our flyers.
Bottom line: the real problem lies with the feminist leadership, not with rank and file feminists.
Damn Janice,
Profound. Very succinctly puts into words the dynamic at play in out gynocentric world.
I have to say, it's unbelievable admirable how you will state the obvious.
Men need less duty, and far more rights. Women need less rights, and far more duty.
In this way, I find you far superior to Jordan Peterson in you're approach to the issues of men.
Jordan Peterson would never even dare utter the word "gynocnetrism" unfortunately.
A great conversation, thank you very much David and Janice, much to reflect upon.
Great interview! A very lively back and forth, point and counterpoint.
My own journey began in the 1980's, searching reading, trying to understand and comprehend. It was very isolating.
I'm so lost. Why can't men and women simply love each other?
A psychoanalyst would probably refer to "projection." I can't argue with that, but I'd prefer to explain this phenomenon in terms of the cultural mechanisms that encourage it. Ideologies rely heavily on the doctrine that ends can justify means. If fostering hatred--mobilizing resentment by teaching contempt--leads to revolution, then so be it. Besides, as any advocate of anti-Westernism (a.k.a. wokism ) would explain, the moral principles of Western civilization are themselves evidence of its inherent but carefully disguised evil.
Terrific piece. Loved the discussion about grief, as acceptance of reality. I would like to get to know David Shackleton.
This is wonderful. Thank you.
This is a wonderful conversation about a critical issue. Feminism, as a movement, is aimed at emasculating men, and preventing us from responding in any other way than complete submission to women, and the abandonment of every strength men have developed.
It really is hard to accept the feminist claim that their movement is for equality when consistently every male virtue is condemned as “toxic” in order to force men into submission, and suppress our energy, and creativity, deny their value, and require us to roll over and play dead as misandrist cows force us to bow down or be condemned as agents of a patriarchy that doesn’t exist.